Showing posts with label Moonbin. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Moonbin. Show all posts

Monday, January 26, 2026

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Moon Sua shares a touching birthday message for the late Moonbin ... "My one and only big brother"

SOURCE: 문수아, 故 문빈 뭉클한 생일 축하…"하나뿐인 오라버니"

On the 26th, Moon Sua posted a photo on her social media account with the caption, "Happy birthday to my one and only big brother."

The photo shows Moon Sua and the late Moonbin during their childhood. Moonbin is seen holding his younger sister tightly with a warm smile, moving the hearts of those who saw the photo.

Seeing the post, Choi Yoojung commented, "Both of you are so cute, I could die~" while VIVIZ's SinB wrote, "This reminds me of how you two used to bicker when you were little kids."

Meanwhile, Moonbin, a member of ASTRO, passed away on April 19, 2023.

Continue reading Moon Sua shares a touching birthday message for the late Moonbin ... "My one and only big brother"

Sunday, January 26, 2025

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Today is ASTRO Moonbin's birthday, and Cha Eunwoo released a cover song to celebrate Binnie's birthday.

 

Happy birthday, Bin-ah. How have you been? I miss you a lot lately.
I have so much I want to talk about over drinks with you, but you're not here for me to lean on.
I'm sorry I haven't been able to visit you as often as I did last year.
The more I think of you, the more I've been holding back and focusing on work.
That's what you wanted, right? But now, it's starting to feel overwhelmingㅎㅎㅎ I don't know... Am I doing okay??
I feel your absence more than ever, my friend.
I just miss you.
I love you.
Happy Moonbin Day💜

Cha Eunwoo was born in 1997 and Moonbin was born early in 1998, making them the only same-aged members in the group.

Following last year, Eunwoo posted a cover song and left a message again this year.

Please listen to it and don't forget our Binnie~

theqoo

-Happy birthday, Moonbin ❤️👍🏻

-Bin-ah, are you doing well? Happy birthday.

-I still can’t believe it. Such a beautiful young man... I miss him.

-Happy birthday!!! But Cha Eunwoo’s message is so sad... Stay strong ㅜㅜ

-Happy birthday, Bin! I miss you so much!

-Happy birthday, Binnie!!! I hope you only hear kind words every day, even there.

-Binnie Binnie, happy birthday! I love you so much, and Lee Dongmin, you’re doing great!!!

-Happy birthday, Moonbin! It's cold outside, so stay warm.

-ㅠㅠㅠㅠㅠㅠ I came to TheQoo after seeing this. Happy birthday.

-Bin-ah, happy birthday!! Eunwoo, I hope you find happiness too.

-How much he must miss and long for Moonbinㅠㅠ Happy birthday, Bin-ah... I hope Eunwoo is having a nice day as well.

-Happy birthday, Bin. Are you watching your friends?... I miss you too.

-Happy birthday, Moonbin. Reading Cha Eunwoo’s message, you can tell he’s such a good person. I hope he's happy too. -

-Happy birthday, Bin-ah. Let’s all be happy.

-Happy birthday. I hope you're smiling even more up there.

Continue reading Today is ASTRO Moonbin's birthday, and Cha Eunwoo released a cover song to celebrate Binnie's birthday.

Friday, January 26, 2024

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Today is ASTRO Moonbin's birthday💜

 

"Our Binnie~ Happy Birthday! 💜

Love you and miss you, my brother^^

From MJ~Hyung #ASTRO #AROHA #Happy_Birthday_My_Eternal_Moonbin" 

As soon as it turned 12 o'clock, the eldest hyung's sent his heartfelt message.

'Bin-ah, happy birthday!!ㅎㅎ

Are you doing well?? Today is a day I miss you even more!!

I'm living my life to the fullest these days!! I believe you'll be watching over meㅎㅎ Are you eating well and resting well? Make sure to have seaweed soup today; we don't have many pictures together, should have taken moreㅎㅎ

Wishing you a day happier than anyone else's. Love you, my brother! 😍

#Happy_Birthday_My_Eternal_Moonbin" 

theqoo

-Bin-ah, happy birthday! I miss you.

-Moonbin, I miss you~ Happy birthday! 💜💜

-Just hearing the name Bin makes me teary. Happy birthday, really, I love you a lot. I miss you.

-Bin-ah, happy birthday! I hope you're happy there too. 💜

-Bin-ah, I love you. Happy birthday! 💜

-Bin-ah, happy birthday! Forever love you.

-Happy birthday!! Always shine, Bin-ah.

-Bin-ah, happy birthday! I hope you have a happier day than anyone else today. 💜

-Happy birthday, my eternal moon. ❤️

-Eternal My Moon, Bin-ah, happy birthday! ❤️💜

-Bin-ah, happy birthday! I love you so much. 💜

-Every letter is filled with longing and love. Everyone looks so beautiful. You have to be happy. Aroha too. Bin-ah, happy birthday

-Moon Bin, happy birthday!!! I hope you have a joyful day today.

Continue reading Today is ASTRO Moonbin's birthday💜

Saturday, October 7, 2023

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The reason why ASTRO & Moonbin-Sanha's fans are crying at dawn today

 ASTRO's youngest member, Sanha, posted his cover of DISH's Neko at 01:26AM, known as Bin's hour (Moonbin's birthday is on January 26th).



A few months ago, Sanha posted on the official fan cafe that he was listening to DISH's Neko.

You must have become a cat, right?


Moonbin's nickname is 멍냥이 (NB: Meong-nyang-ie, which resembles the sound that a cats make)
In the latest letter Sanha wrote to Moonbin, he attached an illustration of a cat and wrote 'I thought this was you, Hyung'. This makes fans wonder if the lyrics of that song remind him of Moonbin. 

And the cover that he posted today. 
He wrote the lyrics and puts it on the video.

If you become an abandoned cat,
then I would hold you in my arms.
If you get hurt, I will wipe that wound.
Give you warmth with all my heart.
I miss you, I can't forget you.
I want you to come back, even in the form of a cat.

The original lyrics are supposed to be  (Kimi, you). But he changed it to ヒョン(Hyung)


If Hyung was an abandoned cat, 
then I would hold you in my arms, Hyung.
If you get hurt, I will wipe your wound.
Give you warmth with all my heart.
I miss you... I can't forget you Hyung.
I want you to come back, even in the form of a cat.
One day, please come back to me.
Then I will be happy again.

In the video, you can see the number '1' in ASTRO's group chat, which indicates the messages have been read by all of the members, except one.

 







I cried when I first listened to this song
Because I felt like it was expressing my feelings
That's why I've been wanting to sing it
I'm sure my family, my fellow members, AROHA, and everyone else will be happy one day. I'm sure of it. 

I've been crying for one hour, since the moment he posted that video
However, I have to admit that it also gives me comfort.

I hope Binnie, Sanha, their families, ASTRO's members, and also all of their fans will always be healthy and happy.


-The number '1' that will never disappear... That's really sad. It's early in the morning and I'm already crying.

-I love how he expresses how much he's longing for Moonbin...

-'You must have become a cat, right?' That part is really sad... Also, the fact that Sanha changed the lyrics from 'you' to 'Hyung' too...

-It breaks my heart, especially because I can feel his sincerity through his voice... I hope everyone will get better and happierㅠㅠ

-I hope everyone will get better, little by little... May we all feel less sad, little by little...

-I miss you... Is it possible for me to be happy even when you're not around? 

-I'm not a fan, but I'm crying at dawn when I saw that post...ㅠㅠ I wish both ASTRO and their fans all the happiness there is in this world...

-Sanha-ya, thank you and I love you...

-I'm starting my day with tearsㅠㅠㅠㅠㅠㅠㅠ

-I miss you... I'm not fine. I'm too busy living my life, I never had the chance to express my feelings properly. However, I promise to be happy. Let's all be happy. 

-I've been thinking about Moonbin a lot lately... I can't forget his smile...

-Let's be happy. I'm sure we all can be happyㅠㅠㅠㅠ

-It really breaks my heart to see that shot of their groupchat...

-This is really heartbreaking...

-I'm really grateful to Sanha for expressing his feelings out loud like this. He has no idea how much it strengthens me. I hope Binnie, Sanha, and everyone else to be happy!!

-Sanha-ya... The one with such a beautiful heart... Let's be happy...

Continue reading The reason why ASTRO & Moonbin-Sanha's fans are crying at dawn today

Monday, April 24, 2023

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SHINee Jonghyun's fans leave chocolates at Moonbin's memorial site

 

I'm a Jonghyun fan.
I'm worried that some people might have skipped meals, so I've left some chocolates.
I've prepared plenty, so please feel free to take a piece or two.
(Please move it to a safer place if it's exposed to sunlight. Thank you)

It makes me cry because they know how fans feel right now.
SHINee Jonghyun's fans are so warm-heartedㅠㅠ


-This sight is both breaking and warming my heart at the same time. I hope both Jonghyun and Moonbin are happy wherever they're at right now. I know no words can comfort them right now, but I really hope they gain some strength...

-Bin, have you arrived safely? I hope you're holding hands and traveling to many beautiful places with our Jjong now, who I'm sure has found his happiness. We'll be sad for awhile, but then we'll cherish the memories you left behind and remember you here. I hope you're full of happiness there. 

-Both Jonghyun and Moonbin were loved by such warm-hearted people. So I'm sure they must've slept comfortably and happily.

-Why are good people gone too soon?

-Please don't make me cryㅠㅠㅠ

-I wish happiness to Jonghyun, Bin-ie, and all of us they left behind...

-I don't know what to say... I'm afraid I'll only say the wrong things. I just hope that all of his fans can overcome this.

-Jonghyun-ah, Bin-ah, I love you so much. I miss you. I hope there is no more pain where you are. I pray that you live on with a smile. I hope their fans gain strength.

-Jonghyun and Moonbin made me realize that the world is too cold for warm-hearted people to live in...

-I think it was a really good decision for the company to create a memorial site. Fans now have a space to remember him and comfort each other. 

Continue reading SHINee Jonghyun's fans leave chocolates at Moonbin's memorial site

Saturday, April 22, 2023

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Actress Moon Gayoung mourns for Moonbin in her Instagram update

 


All the moments from our beginning, up to the point where you suddenly grew taller than me and I started to look up to you, are vivid

theqoo 

-There are so many pictures of Moonbin when he was young that surfaced online, and that makes me even sadder. It seems like he has really lived ambitiously since he was very young.

-Moon Gayoung also used to be a child actor and they've been friends since they were youngㅠㅠ

-The more I see his pictures, the sadder I get as I realize how young he was when he stepped foot in the entertainment industry. He is still shining, even now that he has left. He was still really young.

-This makes me realize how much he was loved by so many people... Everyone who is posting tribute for him seems really young, they're all still in their 20s...

-Is the kid on the left in the second picture iKON's Jung Chanwoo?

-Ah... I'm crying againㅠㅠㅠ

-It's really sad... Oh Gosh, he was too young to leave...ㅠㅠ

-Bin-ah, I hope you're happy...

-Bin-ah... I'm so happy that I get to see your pictures and hear your stories a lot. I don't know how to accept the fact that you're no longer with us. Bin-ah...

-Is this real?? I still cant believe this happened. How am I supposed to live now?

Continue reading Actress Moon Gayoung mourns for Moonbin in her Instagram update
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SF9 Chanhee's Instagram update

 

I hope he can overcome this...

theqoo

-Oh Gosh... It must be even harder for him since they've been friends since they were younger and even trained together... Stay strong...

-I still can't believe thisㅠㅠ Even I am having a hard time. I can't imagine how tougher it must be for the people who knew him since they were young...

-Chanhee is still young, he may not be used to this kind of thing... I hope he can overcome thisㅠㅠ

-They've been friends since they were babiesㅠㅠ I hope Chanhee stays strongㅠㅠ

-My heart fell apart as soon as I saw those picturesㅠㅠ

-They've been together since they were child actors, appeared in Star King as Baby-DBSK together, trained at Fantagio together, and even debuted as idols together... I can't even begin to imagine how he feels...

-Chanhee once said that he couldn't dance well when he was younger. Moonbin taught him how to dance. Chanhee said he wanted to become a great dancer like Moonbin and now he's the main dancer in his group. Chanhee also said that he learned how to moonwalk from Moonbin. There's a moonwalk in SF9's Now or Never, well... He learned that from Moonbinㅋㅋㅋㅎ He's a good person that gave a lot of influence to other people...

-This is just so sad...

-I'm worried about Chanhee too... They grew up together, they were always together since they were babies... This is really heartbreaking. I hope he can overcome this.

Continue reading SF9 Chanhee's Instagram update

Friday, April 21, 2023

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SHINee's Key leaves a comment on Moonbin's Instagram


 

I came here to say goodbye with a heart full of hope that you'll go to a good place, but it makes me can't sleep even more. I sincerely hope that you're truly happy. Thank you for all the records you left. The people left behind can cry and smile at those memories and live on, looking forward to the day you greet us with your bright smile. You've worked hard, really. And I'm sorry for not knowing. 

theqoo

-He knows better than anyone else...ㅠㅠ

-Bin-ie, rest well thereㅠㅠ You've worked really hard...

-Oh Gosh... Kibumie must be having a lot of thoughts right now...

-I hope everyone is happy wherever they're at...

-I will not keep crying and hurting. I will miss you a lot as I look at the footprints you left behind. I hope you're resting peacefully while holding on to only good memories. I will miss you a lot. I will come to see you whenever I miss you.

-I hope his fans grieve as much as they can and send him off. I hope Binie's days in heaven are only filled with that beautiful smile of his.

-I'm at the office and I'm crying to read this... I hope he no longer suffers there. I hope he will always be happy from now on.

-Moonbin is a good person, I'm sure he's in a good place now. I also hope the people left behind won't have a hard time for a long time.

-This is really heartbreakingㅠㅠ I hope Moonbin is at peace there...

-I don't know much about him, but I will remember him as someone who is always smiling so brightly. May he rest in peace.

-I'm sorry for not knowingㅠㅠㅠ

Continue reading SHINee's Key leaves a comment on Moonbin's Instagram

Thursday, April 20, 2023

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How did Moonbin's fansite master know about this?

 ?? She knew about it even before it was on the news??

Bin-ah's beautiful 26
Bin-ah
Lovely Bin-ah
close
Ha... Ha... Ah...
F*ck

Bin-ah, lovely Bin-ah
Bin-ah, I really like you. I will remember and cherish the memories of Moonbin at 26.
My lovely Bin-ah
I'm happy just by calling your name, Bin-ah

[+549][-9]

1. [+343][-2] Reporters don't publish articles as soon as they hear the news. They wait in the hospital and report it to their higher-ups first before publishing the article and the news is already being spread before the articles are published.

2. [+294][-1] I think it must feel like losing your soulmate. I wouldn't be able to bear it if I no longer can hear the voice and see the face of someone that I liked so much. 

3. [+286][-16] We live in a shitty world where Seungri lives and Moonbin dies
Oh Gosh. Today is ASTRO Moonbin's mother's birthday. I can't imagine how his family feels right now. May he rest in peace.
04/20/21: MB: 'Ah right, today is my mom's birthday. I should give her a call~'

4. [+275][-3] It's possible for her to know before it was on the news. Considering that Moonbin was discovered at 8PM and he was brought to Asan Hospital. He was also a celebrity after all... It's really sad.

5. [+238][-2] That is probably the saddest way a fansite master closes her fansite I have ever seen... Oh Gosh.

6. [+181][-3] Looks like the news was already being spread before it was on the news. I noticed some international fans knew it before the news came out...
Continue reading How did Moonbin's fansite master know about this?
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Kim Jaejoong seems to be mourning for Moonbin in his Instagram story

 

May you be happier in heaven

Moonbin starred in DBSK's Balloons MV in 2006 and appeared on SBS Star King as a child prodigy.


In 2021, Moonbin guested on 'The Neighborhood Young Man' which was hosted by Kim Jaejoong



May he rest in peace


-Ah right... I forgot they knew each other

-I still can't believe this... Please tell me it's just a lie...

-I'm tearing up to see his baby pictures...

-Whoa... I still remember that MV...

-Hul... I didn't know that baby was Moonbinㅠㅠㅠㅠ

-I've been watching Moonbin since he was young, that's why it breaks my heart to hear him passed away at the age of 25, even though I don't know him personally...ㅠㅠㅠ

-I still can't believe this happenedㅜㅜㅜㅜㅜ

-I don't want to believe that I wouldn't be able to see him again. I have the same birthday as him and Jaejoong. I will celebrate his birthday every year, as if he's still with us...

-This is really upsetting... It must be heartbreaking for Kim Jaejoong as well...

-Bin-ah, I miss youㅠㅠ I love youㅠㅠ
Continue reading Kim Jaejoong seems to be mourning for Moonbin in his Instagram story
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Moonbin: I chose this profession, so I have to face the consequences it comes with

Live broadcast from ten days ago



MB: I wasn't feeling well before, but now I'm okay. Actually, if I have to confess something, it was a bit tough. I was struggling, but I tried not to show it as much as possible. Actually, I think I showed a bit since the fan concert. I'm really sorry.

SH: What are you sorry forㅡㅡ

MB: I'm making an effort to get better, I should start exercising now.

SH: Our Rohas will understand it

MB: I should recover the things I've been missing out on and make our Rohas happy.

SH: It's not your fault, Hyung

MB: I chose this profession, so I have to face the consequences it comes with

SH: We're human too, though? Right?!ㅎㅎㅎ

theqoo

-I didn't know you were having a hard time. I hope you're no longer sick and at peace right now...

-This is so heart-breakingㅠㅠㅠ May he rest in peace... I hope people would stop leaving hate comments.

-I didn't realize that you were going through a hard time. I didn't see this coming at all, since you were always smiling. Bin-ah, I hope you rest in peace and live happily, only for yourself, in that place. Thank you for giving me so much joy and laughter. You've been through a lot.

-I hope he knew that even if it's the profession that he chooses, it's okay for him to admit that he was going through a hard time, that he regrets it, and to show that he was struggling. I'm really sick and tired of people who criticize idols if they show that they were struggling, saying that they shouldn't act like that because they're living an easy life as celebrities. I can't imagine how hard it must be for celebrities. They can't even say that they're struggling. They have to smile in front of fans and cameras regardless of their feelings...

-I'm tearing up now that I see this post...

-I can't imagine how tough it must've been for himㅠㅠㅠ It's heart breakingㅠㅠ

-I'm sorry for not realizing that you were struggling, Bin-ahㅠㅠ

-You silly... I'm not even a fan, but I'm really devastated to hear this. Why did you do that, Moonbin-ah...

-I can see that he was having a hard time hereㅠㅠㅠ I've been living with depression for quite some time, so I know... His expressions, the way he expressed his feelings... Oh Gosh, I hope he's at peace now. He's been through a lot.

Continue reading Moonbin: I chose this profession, so I have to face the consequences it comes with
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What would you do if you could do one good thing as an angel?

 Q: What would you do if you could do one good thing as an angel?

A: I would like to give another chance to those who have ended their lives on their own. To be honest, we don't know when, where, or what will happen, but we don't always think about death as we live. A day is already not enough to think about happy thoughts like what to eat today or what to wear tomorrow. It's too sad and regrettable for someone to end their own life. 

It's from an interview with Cosmopolitan that he did back then

https://www.cosmopolitan.co.kr/article/70922

May he rest in peace

theqoo

-I can't imagine how hard it must've been for himㅠㅠ

-And he eventually became an angel...

-Perhaps that was the message he wanted to say to himself. It could've also been his way to ask for help... It's really sad, my heart aches. May he rest in peace.

-I just read the whole interview and realized that his thoughts were deeper than I expected...

-You've suffered a lot. You've done really well. I hope you're at peace now.

-You're an angel. I hope you no longer suffer now...

-Bin-ah, you have to be happy there, okay? Do anything you want to do. Be at peace.

-What made you suffer like that, Bin-ah...

-I don't know him that well, but if I were an angel, I would give him another chance. Anyway, I hope he's at peace now.

-It has been really tough for you, right? I hope you can rest peacefully now...

-Can someone please give him another chance...?

Continue reading What would you do if you could do one good thing as an angel?
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Moonbin's latest tweet

 


Aroha, it's a dandelion seed! Dandelion seed~ Ride the wind and spread widely!
Let the people who are precious to me know that spring has come. Tickle them gently.

It feels like something he wanted to say to his fans for the last time, which makes it even more regrettable... He's talking about dandelion, it's really sad.

[+897][-10]

1. [+245][-0] If his fans didn't even know about it, I can't imagine how much he suffered alone... It's even more heartbreaking

2. [+227][-0] You really can't judge a book by its cover...

3. [+216][-1] So what if spring has come, you're not here anymoreㅠㅠ

4. [+214][-0] I'm not a fan, but I really liked him. It's really heartbreaking to hear the newsㅠㅠ I can't imagine how hard it must be for his fans... May he rest in peace...

5. [+145][-0] I'm not even a fan, but I'm tearing up to see this... Oh Gosh...

6. [+91][-4] Those who have already made the decision to take their own life don't show any signs at all. On the other hand, people who say 'I'm taking my own life' actually haven't made the decision to actually do that. They're asking for help. They want people to understand and comfort them. 

Continue reading Moonbin's latest tweet
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ASTRO's Moonbin found dead in his home

 According to the Gangnam Police Station in Seoul, Moonbin was found dead in his home in Gangnam-gu, Seoul, yesterday evening around 8:10 by his manager, who reported it to the police.

A police official stated, "It is suspected that Moonbin took his own life. We are considering conducting an autopsy and other investigations to determine the exact cause of death."

theqoo

-I can't believe this... What happened?ㅠㅠㅠ

-I don't know much about him, but I know that he was always a bright person who always smiles... This is so sadㅠㅠ

-Why... Why...? I mean why...? This is really sad. I hope he's happy there...

-I sometimes saw him on TV and thought he was a very bright person. I am really shocked right now. I hope he no longer suffers now, both physically and emotionally. May he rest in peace.

-I can't believe this at all... May he rest in peace

-It just doesn't make any sense...

-What...? But why...? I just finished watching him in Fearless Kkura today, though... Why...

-Bin-ah, I love you. I really loved you, I always supported you. I hope you may rest in peace now. You've suffered a lot. I will always remember you. I will never forget you.

-Wait a minute. I just got home from drinking. Is this real...?

-He was someone with a very beautiful smile. This is really shocking. May he rest in peace.

-May he rest in peaceㅠㅠ He was a bright person full of energy who was always smiling, I can't believe this.

-I'm so shocked right now, I think I'm gonna throw up...

-I loved you. I hope you know that a lot of people loved you and supported you...

-This doesn't make sense... I went to ASTRO's pre-recording a few times because I really like Moonbin. What is going on? This doesn't make sense

-Please tell me this is a lie. I just woke up...

-I hope he's in a good place right nowㅠ

Continue reading ASTRO's Moonbin found dead in his home

Friday, November 18, 2022

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The updated result of gay men's favorite male idols 2022 ver

 


ASTRO's Moonbin





ASTRO's Cha Eunwoo



Ex KNK's Park Seoham



The Boyz's Juyeon



Monsta X's Shownu


Seventeen's Mingyu

theqoo

-I like them too...

-Looks like we share something in commonㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ

-There are a lot of gay men around me who like Shownu...

-Looks like both men and women like Cha Eunwoo...

-It seems like they like handsome men. Well, I do like handsome men, too...

-Their type is similar to mine...?^^;;

-I like Park Seoham too...

-My bias is in this list...

-We're rivals...

-They all have similar vibes...?ㅋㅋㅋㅋ

-I'm a straight woman, but I can totally relate to them...

-You guys better get in the line

-Gay men have f*cking high standards...

Continue reading The updated result of gay men's favorite male idols 2022 ver

Wednesday, November 9, 2022

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These male and female idols are holding hands but...

 

I didn't really think much of it. It looks like they were watching a Japanese-Korean match in The World Cupㅋㅋㅋㅋ They look really desperateㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ

instiz

-Because they're real friendsㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ

-Why does my heart flutter to see Moonbin? He's holding Sinbi's hand with one hand and drinking beer with his other hand...

-I mean... I didn't even notice they were holding handsㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ

-They look really desperateㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ

-Who would've thought they were watching Transit Love in that gif?ㅋㅋㅋㅋ They look like they were watching The World Cup thereㅋㅋㅋㅋ

-In the middle of that, Moonbin is still busy eatingㅋㅋㅋㅋ

-Why are they holding hands...? They all look so nervous...

-They give off the same vibes as the boarding house students in one of Reply series... Do you know what I mean?

-Moonbin is always eating throughout the whole episode...

-They look really adorableㅋㅋㅋㅋ

-Moonbin looks so uninterested thereㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ


Continue reading These male and female idols are holding hands but...